Acupuncture or Accupressure -bunk or truth Incarnate?

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:39 pm

So I'm plagued with migraines, chronic back pain, and Psychogenic non-epileptic seizures. The latter causes all sort of pain problems because I continually faint and fall in any direction. I'm loathe to become a little more dependent on pills because i take anywhere between seven to fourteen pills a day dependent on the situation. Family and friends have been recommending Acupuncture and accupressure to me recently.

Aside from the exorbitant cost of these procedures -- about 70$ USD+ each session (not covered by insurance) --, I'm also worried about the scientific nature of them.

There seems to be some weak correlation between what we'll call TCM (traditional chinese medicine) and relief according to Wiki. But it is wiki and after the homeopathic discussion that was had on the boards a while ago, I figured, I'd try to bring this subject up over here.

I've always vaguely been a earth-hippy,I suppose. But, when it comes to practice, it's all bunk because I ask for proof. So, sirs and madams, show me proof or show it as bunkem!

Edit: i was trying to edit original post and must have accidentally hit the quote button instead.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:58 pm

I think Frank can probably give a reasonable proof one way or the other, but in the mean time I can offer some reasonable hand waving on the matter.

There are a whole lot of nerves that make up the body and the form a complex web. Various locations process this web in the body (not just the brain) and they come into the brain as a complex web. It would be almost silly to suggest that signals don't on occasion cross over. Evolution probably would eliminate the really bad cross overs but some might exist and centuries of trial and error might come up with some cause effect relationships. Remember we used aspirin for many years before we had a clue what it was doing.

Here is something similar. You know that exercise where you squeeze a medicine ball in front of you? Well you don't even need the ball, if you pretend to squeeze a ball in front of you the muscles in your diaphragm can respond as well. This is a good technique to help a singer with breath control ... there is no physical link between shoulder muscles and the diaphragm it has to be a nerve cross over thing.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:26 am

I'm a biased source (having studied TCM), but yeah, acupuncture can really work. It's been shown by biased (anti-TCM) research to be no better than placebo in certain cases, but there's obviously a wealth of anecdotal evidence that it does work in a lot of cases, placebo effect or otherwise.

Try it out if you think you can afford a session. Get a reliable person to do it: there are always quacks, especially in alternative medicine. You want to get someone who will give you a full-up diagnosis, and then decide whether you should be doing cupping, acupuncture, diet change, or some combination.

There are health insurance plans that cover alternative medicine; IIRC some states mandate it. You don't have to go in to get treated for any specific problem. If your plan won't cover 'chronic' problems, come up with a bullshit reason to get treated that they will cover. A good TCM practitioner will just give you a full-up diagnosis and prescribe some treatment that covers everything (hence "holistic").

I can't say anything about acupressure; I know absolutely nothing about it beyond someone telling me that the Japanese 'stole' it to make kiatsu.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:07 am

There have been some interesting studies recently - using a technique called "sham accupuncture" as treatment for one of the control groups. So far it seems that just poking needle holes anywhere in the body may provide better relief than sugar pills or more conventional placebos.

Linkies:

http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare ... ne/tb/2604

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/conditio ... index.html

Hard to say if there's something here, or if it's just the media picking up on oddball studies.

....

However, as a general philosophy: I endorse trying (just about) anything once, and then sticking to whatever works for your own body.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:07 am

They should try a nastier tasting placebo in liquid form. That would be an interesting comparison to the traditional sugar pill. How about a study comparing how skeptical patients are to the effectiveness of a sugar pill?

I don't think acupuncture has ever been shown to have a mechanism by which it is effective. I certainly haven't heard of one. Without that its just a placebo. An expensive one at that.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:42 am

Draco_Argentum wrote:I don't think acupuncture has ever been shown to have a mechanism by which it is effective. I certainly haven't heard of one. Without that its just a placebo. An expensive one at that.

That's true, in a sense. there are acupuncture points in places that are actually devoid of any major nerves, which indicates that hitting nerve bundles isn't the mechanism, isn't always the mechanism, or that some points are ineffectual.

As far as being understood by the medical community, acupuncture is in about the same place as antidepressants: studies tend to show them barely better than placebo (if not identical), and the mechanism by which they effect changes in the body is almost completely unknown.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:16 am

We know what SSRIs and SNRIs do and how they do it though.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:35 pm

Fact: damaging the body wall in most cases triggers a healing event which has systemic in addition to local effects. Therefore an injury of sufficiently small size can have a net positive effect on the rate at which you heal (just as it can be the straw that breaks your camel).

Fact: nerves operate on a wave system, which means that they are susceptible to rules of constructive and destructive interference. Resonance and Dissonance can be generated by other nerve triggers, causing sensations to be amplified or dulled by the addition of extra sensations.

---

So Acupuncture could work. Although most people I've talked to who do it don't seem to have a theory set that would allow them to know how to do it in a way that would work. Certainly I've physically dissected the area between the foot and the kidney and there is no connection there that can be modified with a needle in either.

-Username17

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:39 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Fact: damaging the body wall in most cases triggers a healing event which has systemic in addition to local effects. Therefore an injury of sufficiently small size can have a net positive effect on the rate at which you heal (just as it can be the straw that breaks your camel).

-Username17

So damaging the body wall -- is this similar to breaking of muscular tissue while exercising and then the rebuilding thereof?

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:58 pm

Draco_Argentum wrote:We know what SSRIs and SNRIs do and how they do it though.

We know that SSRIs almost certainly work by raising serotonin levels in certain parts of the brain, and SNRIs do the same thing with norepinephrine as well. Why that has the `antidepressive` effect on the brain that it sometimes does is unknown.

The use of dopamine reuptake inhibitors and dopamine antagonists (like bupropion and risperdone) as antidepressants is even less well understood.

If I'm using a bad example and there is neurological research that has shown a consistent mechanism, I'd like to know.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:59 pm

A_Cynic wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Fact: damaging the body wall in most cases triggers a healing event which has systemic in addition to local effects. Therefore an injury of sufficiently small size can have a net positive effect on the rate at which you heal (just as it can be the straw that breaks your camel).

-Username17
So damaging the body wall -- is this similar to breaking of muscular tissue while exercising and then the rebuilding thereof?

Depending on your definition of "similar" I guess the answer is probably "yes."

It's a severely double edged sword. If you don't have the nutrients and rest needed to take advantage of the extra rebuilding "work orders" that this generates in the body, then you just tore holes in your body and left them there. If you do, then you just bought yourself some body renovations.

And like with muscular repair, if you aren't careful the body will panic and call for rapid and shoddy work to repair those areas - which gets you scar tissue that is structural but not functional.

-Username17